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is right for michigan. tell us in a nutshell, what are you trying to do? >> create an experiment in michigan where we have labor freedom, defined as where unions are free to make their case as workers are to make their choice, dana. >> so originally governor snyder when he started his term, this wasn't necessarily at the top of his agenda. he had the budget deficit situation, the job killing tax he tried to get fix, but saw the results in indiana when governor mitch daniels made indiana a right to work state. is that what michigan is looking to, to try to figure out how to jump-start this economy that's lagged at 18.9% unemployment rate? it's too much to bear for workers there. >> governor snyder has been consistent from the beginning that it wasn't on his agenda yet, but he's been successful at leading us through dramatic changes in michigan. we are the comeback state, but now with the data that we've received from the blessings of having to work through proposal two, it's clear that they want us to become
is right for michigan. tell us in a nutshell, what are you trying to do? >> create an experiment in michigan where we have labor freedom, defined as where unions are free to make their case as workers are to make their choice, dana. >> so originally governor snyder when he started his term, this wasn't necessarily at the top of his agenda. he had the budget deficit situation, the job killing tax he tried to get fix, but saw the results in indiana when governor mitch daniels made...
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here's what the president said yesterday in michigan. [video clip] >> these right to work law don't have to do with economics. they have everything to do with politics. what they are really talking about is giving you the right to work for less money. [cheers and applause] you only have to look to michigan, where workers were instrumental in reviving the auto industry and to see how unions have helped to build not just a straw upper-middle-class but a stronger america -- stronger middle-class but a stronger america. people and should be focused on the same pink. they should be working to make sure companies like this manufacturer is able to make more great products. that's what they should be focused on. host: distorts free press, courtesy of the newseum in washington, as this headline -- some schools are closed in the state so teachers can also protests that block today. here is the detroit news. there headline -- michigan pro-union people are protesting this law. the republican-led legislature is expected to take it up today. this legi
here's what the president said yesterday in michigan. [video clip] >> these right to work law don't have to do with economics. they have everything to do with politics. what they are really talking about is giving you the right to work for less money. [cheers and applause] you only have to look to michigan, where workers were instrumental in reviving the auto industry and to see how unions have helped to build not just a straw upper-middle-class but a stronger america -- stronger...
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this is to move michigan forward. about more and better jobs and worker choice. >> and one top union official has vowed to wage war against lawmakers that support the measure saying, quote, we are going to take you out. nbc's ron mott has the latest of lansing. >> reporter: good afternoon, tamron. protest is the word of the day. they're voicing opposition to this legislation that would make michigan the 24th right to work state in the country. now, the governor rick snyder is expected to sign this legislation when and if it hits his desk. a lot of folks here believe that this is a back door attempt at trying to limit democracy in the state of michigan. you can hear some of the protests behind me and union workers here believe it's a direct attempt at trying to break the backs of the unions as i should say and a lot of folks believe that this is payback for the result of the election on november 6th. the re-election of president obama. i spoke with the head of the chamber of commerce here in michigan. he believes this
this is to move michigan forward. about more and better jobs and worker choice. >> and one top union official has vowed to wage war against lawmakers that support the measure saying, quote, we are going to take you out. nbc's ron mott has the latest of lansing. >> reporter: good afternoon, tamron. protest is the word of the day. they're voicing opposition to this legislation that would make michigan the 24th right to work state in the country. now, the governor rick snyder is...
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in michigan yesterday, president obama said the law was politically driven. susan mcginnis is in washington with details. good morning to you. >> reporter: good morning. yeah, the governor now says he wants the economic boost that the law would bring, the jobs and the companies that would locate there, but many disagree. workers say it's going to push down their pay and benefits and weaken unions. police stand shoulder to shoulder preparing for as many as 10,000 protesters at the michigan state capitol today. >> people have a constitutional right to demonstrate. however, all we ask is that they do it in an orderly, lawful, and civil manner. >> reporter: state legislators vote this morning on a right-to-work bill that would weaken unions. opponents acknowledge they're powerless to stop it. >> at the end of the day they'll be passed and signed by the governor. that doesn't make it right. >> reporter: the bill means michigan workers would no longer have to pay the union fees for negotiating contracts and other services. >> if i'm being provided a service by a pa
in michigan yesterday, president obama said the law was politically driven. susan mcginnis is in washington with details. good morning to you. >> reporter: good morning. yeah, the governor now says he wants the economic boost that the law would bring, the jobs and the companies that would locate there, but many disagree. workers say it's going to push down their pay and benefits and weaken unions. police stand shoulder to shoulder preparing for as many as 10,000 protesters at the michigan...
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not just in michigan but beyond michigan borders. >> one of the things i've watched the labor movement do over the last basically four or five years is a lot of the focus was on getting barack obama or a democrat elected president and also getting representatives and senators elected to washington. i think they took their eye off the ball to some extent in these local races. well now we see what happens when you don't have the feet on the ground, the money in the local races, you end up with state legislatures that are unfriendly to labor causes. so i think the wake-up call for labor nationally to focus on some of these states. i'm thinking about ohio now. ohio passed and then repealed a limit on collective bargaining for public employees but it doesn't mean that the issue won't come up there again. states like pennsylvania are not right to work states. there are still opportunities for the conservative movement, the antilabor movement, to go in for right to work. i think someone maybe in the labor movement will say, okay, we draw a land in the sand with michigan. we can't let this spr
not just in michigan but beyond michigan borders. >> one of the things i've watched the labor movement do over the last basically four or five years is a lot of the focus was on getting barack obama or a democrat elected president and also getting representatives and senators elected to washington. i think they took their eye off the ball to some extent in these local races. well now we see what happens when you don't have the feet on the ground, the money in the local races, you end up...
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outside washington in lansing michigan at the state house the michigan house approved the first of the two right to work bills that would weaken the union power in the state. the republican dominated chamber passed a measure dealing with public sector workers 58-51. coming up in about 15 minutes here on c-span2, we will take you to the white house for today's briefing with jay carney, and indications that president obama will be at today's briefing. we will have it live when it starts to read back to the conversation on the fiscal cliff this morning from the washington journal and a look at how the business is might be affected. of >>> let's begin with what iss bi comeess and how does it t: about?t's >> guest: is an organization with a simple mission. our job is trying to make it ist easier for business leaders inon about country that care about policy issues but don't have a washington office or don't havea town spe to speak out on the issuesak of the public policy. >> host: so, is this a brand-new organization? >> guest: even a route for years three and a half supported by some of th
outside washington in lansing michigan at the state house the michigan house approved the first of the two right to work bills that would weaken the union power in the state. the republican dominated chamber passed a measure dealing with public sector workers 58-51. coming up in about 15 minutes here on c-span2, we will take you to the white house for today's briefing with jay carney, and indications that president obama will be at today's briefing. we will have it live when it starts to read...
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president obama today speaking at a truck engine plant in michigan said he's willing to give a little but he's not willing to compromise when it comes to taxes on the wealthiest americans. as for house speaker boehner who he met with yesterday at the white house, he said the gop offer remains the same, no rate hikes. however, there were more signs over the weekend that republican unity may be cracking a little bit with lawmakers who want to take the tax issue off the table asap. >> there are a growing group of folks looking at this and realizes we don't have a lot of cards as it relates to the tax issue before year end. we have one house, that's it. the presidency and the senate is in the democrats' hands. a lot of people are putting forth a theory. i actually think it has merit. i'm beginning to think that's the best route for us to take. >> what we ought to be working on is the other 93% because even if you do what he wants to do on tax breaks, you only affect 7% of the deficit. what we have done is spend ourselves into a hole. we're not going to raise taxes and borrow money and get
president obama today speaking at a truck engine plant in michigan said he's willing to give a little but he's not willing to compromise when it comes to taxes on the wealthiest americans. as for house speaker boehner who he met with yesterday at the white house, he said the gop offer remains the same, no rate hikes. however, there were more signs over the weekend that republican unity may be cracking a little bit with lawmakers who want to take the tax issue off the table asap. >> there...
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jeff flock is in lansing michigan covering the story for us. i thought it was interesting how you covered the scene there with michigan a few years back, excuse me, wisconsin. >> wisconsin, exactly. not the same kind of intensity. part of that is because this is already pretty much a done deal. there they had not a teacher headed off. the second one being debated right now. but renew over here to the scene of the george romney state office building. george romney, former governor of wisconsin, and father of mitt romney. the large group of protesters are trying to get into the crowd and see. they have essentially ringed the entrance of the building trying to make their voices heard. they feel very frustrated. they feel this had passed in a lame duck session without the opportunity for there to be more debate about it. that is their feeling. at this point you mentioned a little bit of white you could call it violence. nothing serious at this point, but we want to keep an eye on this because there are lots of folks, pretty hard to believe michigan
jeff flock is in lansing michigan covering the story for us. i thought it was interesting how you covered the scene there with michigan a few years back, excuse me, wisconsin. >> wisconsin, exactly. not the same kind of intensity. part of that is because this is already pretty much a done deal. there they had not a teacher headed off. the second one being debated right now. but renew over here to the scene of the george romney state office building. george romney, former governor of...
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we'll take you back to michigan as we hear more. obviously a lot of people on both sides debating this today. rick: we're all over that important story. we're also following new developments out of north korea and that country's plan to test a long range rocket. the launch was scheduled to happen any day now. north korea dismantling the rocket to take it off the lawn of pad. is the north caving in to international pressure or could this mean something else entirely. >>> also a kansas family murdered in their homes. the year, 1959. that story brought to live in the chilling crime book. "in cold blood." clues in florida to another family murdered in florida may be tied it this. dr. michael baden looking at brand new developments in a old case. when we come right back. [ woman ] ring. ring. progresso. i just finished a bowl of your new light chicken pot pie soup and it's so rich and creamy... is it really 100 calories? let me put you on webcan... ...lean roasted chicken... and a creamy broth mmm i can still see you. [ male announcer ]
we'll take you back to michigan as we hear more. obviously a lot of people on both sides debating this today. rick: we're all over that important story. we're also following new developments out of north korea and that country's plan to test a long range rocket. the launch was scheduled to happen any day now. north korea dismantling the rocket to take it off the lawn of pad. is the north caving in to international pressure or could this mean something else entirely. >>> also a kansas...
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if governor snyder signs this bill in michigan as expected, michigan would be the most heavily unionized right to work state in the country. alison kosik, describe what's happening now. demonstrators are starting to gather outside of the capitol. are they going to be allowed inside as this historic legislation is passed? >> reporter: they are inside right now as well as outside, so behind me you've got several hundred protesters that began arriving, even before daylight, with their signs, some inflatable rafts, often a symbol of union protests, sitting on the lawn outside here and inside, yes, there are protesters inside, especially right where the gallery is, right where the house floor is, because they want to watch the house in action when it begins in session at 10:00 a.m. in about an hour, so they'll be able to watch the legislative process at work. but there's a huge spillover crowd inside the capitol building, a huge crowd, a couple hundred, in each rotunda on three floors chanting, you can hear their voices inside the capital, once you walk in, you can hear their voices reverb ra
if governor snyder signs this bill in michigan as expected, michigan would be the most heavily unionized right to work state in the country. alison kosik, describe what's happening now. demonstrators are starting to gather outside of the capitol. are they going to be allowed inside as this historic legislation is passed? >> reporter: they are inside right now as well as outside, so behind me you've got several hundred protesters that began arriving, even before daylight, with their signs,...
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the president commented today on the battle over michigan's so-called right to work bill. hundreds of demonstrators showed up at the state capitol in lansing to protest the measure. it would make it illegal to force workers to join unions or more specifically to pay dues. supporters say it will bring more jobs to the state but opponents say non-union workers will end up getting union benefits for free. they claim the real goal is to weaken organized labor. >> these so called right to work laws, they don't have to do with economics. they have everything to do with politics. what they're really talking about is giving you the right to work for less money. >> this is a state issue. indiana did this under governor mitch daniels a couple years ago. they've had some job growth since then. we have to compete. my district is along the state line. we have to compete with them. >> reporter: if it happens, this would be -- michigan would be the 24th state toes pa the law. the house and senate approved their own versions last week. they're set to pass final bill tomorrow. opponents ar
the president commented today on the battle over michigan's so-called right to work bill. hundreds of demonstrators showed up at the state capitol in lansing to protest the measure. it would make it illegal to force workers to join unions or more specifically to pay dues. supporters say it will bring more jobs to the state but opponents say non-union workers will end up getting union benefits for free. they claim the real goal is to weaken organized labor. >> these so called right to work...
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also a live look from the steps of the legislature and michigan right now. the national labor unions are rally in still worked to the right to work boat. it is aimed at organized labor. if it is passed and signed into law which looks like it's when that happened michigan will become the 24th right to work state bed requirements than non-union employees play unions for negotiate contracts and other services. california is not one of those ride to work states right now. this is also happening with wisconsin. we will keep watching the process. >> we have erica looking at the forecast for today >> we have several locations in the upper 30's today. temperatures could continue to decline as we heading closer to sunrise. let us live locally dense fog with visibility at 04 and about all. drive with extra caution. we have made improvements for napa to 7 mi. now. 9 mi. in santa rosa. just half a mile visibility in fairfield and clear conditions for the rest of the bay area. satellite and radar shows a lot of cloud cover and it will continue to stream into the bay. thi
also a live look from the steps of the legislature and michigan right now. the national labor unions are rally in still worked to the right to work boat. it is aimed at organized labor. if it is passed and signed into law which looks like it's when that happened michigan will become the 24th right to work state bed requirements than non-union employees play unions for negotiate contracts and other services. california is not one of those ride to work states right now. this is also happening...
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lansing, michigan today. police are being called in. the bill with would make it illegal to require payment of union dues as a condition of employment. critics say it is a way to break unions supporters say it is good for workers. democrats are upset saying the ran-not dated legislature shoved the measure -- the republican-dominate -- >>> europe's bank agreeing to pay a fine for anotherly -- for nearly two billion dollars and sorry for past mistakes. facebook making change to infrastructure. officials gathering today for start of two day meeting. fed will unleash new round of bond buying designed to keep interest rates low. higher close yesterday. if you are looking for a bargain now could be a good time to pick up a pick-up. general motors boosting buyer insensitives trying to dump extra stock and keep up with better deals on-ramps and nissan titans. at the new york stock exchange, i'm jane king. >>> 5:46. this afternoon as you drive home or after you get home and have dinner that you see the rain? >> may ha
lansing, michigan today. police are being called in. the bill with would make it illegal to require payment of union dues as a condition of employment. critics say it is a way to break unions supporters say it is good for workers. democrats are upset saying the ran-not dated legislature shoved the measure -- the republican-dominate -- >>> europe's bank agreeing to pay a fine for anotherly -- for nearly two billion dollars and sorry for past mistakes. facebook making change to...
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the president was in michigan speaking before autoworkers and selling his tax plan. >> if congress doesn't act soon, meaning the next few weeks, starting on january 1st, everyone is going to see their income taxes go um. it's true. you all don't like that. we can solve this problem. all congress needs to do is pass a law that could prevent a tax hike on the first $250,000 of everybody's income. everybody. [ applause ] that means 98% of americans and probably a hundred percent of ewe. >> some americans are slowly but steadily facing on the reality of fiscal americans. >> there is a growing group of folks that are looking at this and realizing that we don't have a lot of cards as it relates to the tax issue before year end. i mean, we had one house. that's it. the presidency and the senates and the democrat's hands. so a lot of people are putting forth a theory and i actually think it has merit where you go in and give the president the two percent increase that he's talking about, the rate increase on the top two percent. and, all of the sudden, the shift goes back to entitlement. >> well,
the president was in michigan speaking before autoworkers and selling his tax plan. >> if congress doesn't act soon, meaning the next few weeks, starting on january 1st, everyone is going to see their income taxes go um. it's true. you all don't like that. we can solve this problem. all congress needs to do is pass a law that could prevent a tax hike on the first $250,000 of everybody's income. everybody. [ applause ] that means 98% of americans and probably a hundred percent of ewe....
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if this does indeed happen, michigan will become the 24th right-to-work state. but governor rick schneider is backed by a full house and senate of republicans. so this could be easily passed. >> you're seeing a conservative movement to get a better handle on unions. and deal with them better. but the thing about michigan, it's considered to be the birthplace of the nation's modern labor movement. so if it happens there, it could happen in other states and put into motion a domino effect. we saw the wisconsin battle. ohio has dealt with these labor issues. so changing winds in the world of labor and michigan, if they go this way, that would be a big move here. some people argue it makes sense to give workers to right to choose if they want to be in the union, not just be obligated. >>> some bravo now to a chicken restaurant manager in kansas city. edward turner was on duty when three would-be robbers came into his store sunday night. one pulled a gun and demanded some cash. turner grabbed the gun and the suspects beat a hasty retreat. turner said he's just glad t
if this does indeed happen, michigan will become the 24th right-to-work state. but governor rick schneider is backed by a full house and senate of republicans. so this could be easily passed. >> you're seeing a conservative movement to get a better handle on unions. and deal with them better. but the thing about michigan, it's considered to be the birthplace of the nation's modern labor movement. so if it happens there, it could happen in other states and put into motion a domino effect....
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that's the idea that built michigan. that's the idea that's at the heart of the economic plan i've been talking about all year long on the campaign trail. i want to give more americans the chance to earn the skills that businesses are looking for right now, and give our kids the kind of education they need to succeed in the 21st century. i want to make sure america leads the world in research and technology and clean energy. i want to put people back to work rebuilding our roads and our bridges and our schools. [applause] that's how we grow an economy. i want us to bring down our deficits, but i want to do it in a balanced, responsible way. and i want to reward -- i want a tax code that rewards businesses and manufacturers like detroit diesel right here, creating jobs right here in redford, right here in michigan, right here in the united states of america. [applause] that's where we need to go. that's the country we need to build. and when it comes to bringing manufacturing back to america -- that's why i'm here today.
that's the idea that built michigan. that's the idea that's at the heart of the economic plan i've been talking about all year long on the campaign trail. i want to give more americans the chance to earn the skills that businesses are looking for right now, and give our kids the kind of education they need to succeed in the 21st century. i want to make sure america leads the world in research and technology and clean energy. i want to put people back to work rebuilding our roads and our bridges...
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. >> quick question on the michigan right to debate. there's one democrat who said today that if this right to work initiative is signed into law, quote, there will be blood. since the president weighed in yesterday and obviously made his feelings known, and has talked about changing the tone here in washington and around the country, do you -- does the white house feel any obligation to tell fellow democrats to debate this issue but debate it in a peaceful and -- >> the president believes in, you know, debate that's civil. i haven't seen those comments and i'm not sure that they mean what some would interrupt them to be -- interpret them to be, i just haven't seen them. the president has always opposed so-called right to work laws. as he said, those laws are generally political and not economic. they're more about the right to earn less pay than they are, you know, helpful to our economy. . he presented his views on that issue. ? when we were asking about the chicago teacher's strike before the election, you said it was a local issue a
. >> quick question on the michigan right to debate. there's one democrat who said today that if this right to work initiative is signed into law, quote, there will be blood. since the president weighed in yesterday and obviously made his feelings known, and has talked about changing the tone here in washington and around the country, do you -- does the white house feel any obligation to tell fellow democrats to debate this issue but debate it in a peaceful and -- >> the president...
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here we have banners and signs of for a hotly contested issue in the state of michigan. you can see the potential passage of this right to work lot that is what people in the thousands of protest. this would make mich. the 24 the right to work state. we will be following the latest of violence throughout the day. >> online travel adviser hot wired not, as compiled a list of the top most festive destinations for this holiday season. topics ... san juan pr for a six weeklong celebration of christmas from day to day after thanksgiving until the feast of the three kings on january 6th. new york also makes the cut with the attraction of the rockefeller center christmas tree and its radio center christmas bechtel it spectacular. rounding out the top three is on the beach in australia where is summer tech's off on december 1st for all the servers and sunbathers out there. >> kenyan college surfingand a s not looking good. the league is cancel of games through december 30th at the made two more weeks of the season. so far more than 507 canceled including the new year's winter da
here we have banners and signs of for a hotly contested issue in the state of michigan. you can see the potential passage of this right to work lot that is what people in the thousands of protest. this would make mich. the 24 the right to work state. we will be following the latest of violence throughout the day. >> online travel adviser hot wired not, as compiled a list of the top most festive destinations for this holiday season. topics ... san juan pr for a six weeklong celebration of...
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host: laura, republican caller from lansing, michigan. caller: yes, all these deductions and cuts and things, i have never seen anything done to ceo pay, which is exorbitant. i think possibly we could recuperates a money if we took a minuscule amount from wall street, a half cent for trade or something. i liked the two person discussion you had yesterday, reminded me of c-span of old. i would like to see legislators get paid for the hours they work, nor for they are there for a couple days and then they are gone and then they go talk to their constituents and they'll come back with a sun tan. so we know their constituents are all in florida. guest: with ceo pay, years ago there was a tax on any salary over $1 million. that was abolished in the george bush era. there is a new say on pay provision in the dodd-frank financial reform law that gives shareholders a little more veto power over the ceo's pay package. there's not much congress can do on that is directly because if the private sector. the tax on stock trades, there's a proposal for
host: laura, republican caller from lansing, michigan. caller: yes, all these deductions and cuts and things, i have never seen anything done to ceo pay, which is exorbitant. i think possibly we could recuperates a money if we took a minuscule amount from wall street, a half cent for trade or something. i liked the two person discussion you had yesterday, reminded me of c-span of old. i would like to see legislators get paid for the hours they work, nor for they are there for a couple days and...
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there's michigan that prevent someone from verifying the ballot and no reason states should be resisting that. >> i think you're totally right on, this statewide portability issue. that was juan of the most cynical laws i saw passed in 2010 and 2011. it wasn't solving any problem to say you had to reregister when you move and there's no reason you should have to do that. in addition, in early vote, there's no reason we can't systems in place where you can vote anywhere in a county. and in ohio, having early vote with one location per county is not equarterback access to voters when 400,000 voters live in one county and 4,000 voters live in another. that's not equal access, so we need -- i think portability issues about where you register and -- have to deal with multiple voting, and clark county, and nevada, is a mold. your have different sites, they make it as easy as 'opossible for people to vote. that's the kind of law you should pa pass as opposed to laws in florida which make it more difficult. >> is there anyone with a question right now? we'll continue to keep it open but we can m
there's michigan that prevent someone from verifying the ballot and no reason states should be resisting that. >> i think you're totally right on, this statewide portability issue. that was juan of the most cynical laws i saw passed in 2010 and 2011. it wasn't solving any problem to say you had to reregister when you move and there's no reason you should have to do that. in addition, in early vote, there's no reason we can't systems in place where you can vote anywhere in a county. and in...
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. >>> happening now, thousands of protesters are marching on the state capitol in lancing, michigan ahead of a controversial bill that could weaken the power of unions. [chanting] >> this is new video of the protesters this morning. the bill would make it voluntary for workers to join unions. they could not be forced to pay dues even though the union would still bargain on their behalf. >> you will have people that will be working right alongside you that will not have to pay union dues if you pay union dues but will still be able to get all of the benefits from being a union member. >> shouldn't people have the opportunity to say if they want to belong or not? and i think this could be good for economic development. >> democrats oppose the measure but republicans have a majority in the state legislature so the bill is expected to pass. this is a live look from the newschopper of some of the crowds that have gathered outside of the state capitol there in lancing, michigan. again, thousands of union members gathering to protest the so-called "right to work" legislation and that includes au
. >>> happening now, thousands of protesters are marching on the state capitol in lancing, michigan ahead of a controversial bill that could weaken the power of unions. [chanting] >> this is new video of the protesters this morning. the bill would make it voluntary for workers to join unions. they could not be forced to pay dues even though the union would still bargain on their behalf. >> you will have people that will be working right alongside you that will not have to...
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raymond, cleo, michigan, democratic caller. go ahead. caller: yes, i have a two-part question. i was wondering for one, i'm going to be retiring here in another 12 years, but i'm not going to have social security until probably the age of 70. i'm 50 now. i was wondering, right now if i was to lose my job for some unforeseen reason, i will lose my benefits. i have the option as an employee to keep my benefits at about an $800 cost. but when senators and the congressmen step out of their position, i'm not mistaking, they still have their insurance for life. and in the second part question that i'm posing is, i believe they're going to get a 3% pay raise every year. i've never seen in my lifetime them stop that. i was wondering if that's something that could possibly be done? host: isabel sawhill. guest: i assume what you were talking about, if you lose your job you would lose your benefits, you mean primarily your health care benefits. you're right. you would lose them. under the affordable care act, once it's implemented in 2014, that would enable you to go on an exchange and bu
raymond, cleo, michigan, democratic caller. go ahead. caller: yes, i have a two-part question. i was wondering for one, i'm going to be retiring here in another 12 years, but i'm not going to have social security until probably the age of 70. i'm 50 now. i was wondering, right now if i was to lose my job for some unforeseen reason, i will lose my benefits. i have the option as an employee to keep my benefits at about an $800 cost. but when senators and the congressmen step out of their...